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Esan Vartesa
Khanid Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.07.18 16:09:00 -
[1]
Originally by: dexington
Originally by: Miilla
Originally by: KaarBaak
expiration dates.
N O
agree, this is no solution.
I disagree. This is the ultimate solution, which I suggested months ago in MD.
How would that not fix everything?
(Note: The answer is not "Because that would ruin my hoarding strategy.")
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Esan Vartesa
Khanid Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.07.18 16:35:00 -
[2]
PLEX, despite being traded in the player-run economy, is not a regular part of it.
It's an input to the sandbox.
To pretend otherwise is silly. And adding an expiry date of say 90 days to each PLEX unit won't cause them to magically disappear, it'll help drive them out of the economy as the expiry date approaches. Near-expiry PLEX items will either be converted to Aurum to maintain value, or be sold via contract for ISK at a discount.
This solves a plethora of projection problems for CCP, lowers the price of PLEX for non-speculative use, increases the supply of Aurum for the playerbase, and makes people who have so far purchased monocles angry.
Nothing but positives for everyone.
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Esan Vartesa
Khanid Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.07.18 16:58:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Miilla That would make trading PLEX's much harder and thus the price would simply ROCKET then panic FALL near the expirey, and those accounts mothballed for a period with plex for later use, that is effectively telling those customers to never return.
Financial suicide.
Disagree, again. You should use "scare quotes" rather than SCARE CAPS, btw, they tend to be more subtle yet more effective.
There's no reason for prices to "rocket". As the first batch starts to expire, prices will dip slightly, but will be supported by the ability to convert them to Aurum. This will drive the price of all PLEX down, since why would anyone buy a new PLEX at a higher price if the intent is to immediately convert it to game time or Aurum? For legitimate use, a near-expiring PLEX is just as good.
Yes, this hurts the speculative trade in PLEX. That's the whole point.
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Esan Vartesa
Khanid Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.07.18 17:01:00 -
[4]
Originally by: stoicfaux Expiring PLEX would require a brand new code and would be one more database update to run during the daily downtime.
Not going to happen, since CCP has more important things to spend their limited dev resources on.
Depends on how much of a problem they see it as being. But considering that PLEX is a revenue source, I'm sure that if it is a concern it will be made a much higher priority than fixing, say, Gallente ships.
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Esan Vartesa
Khanid Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.07.18 17:12:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Miilla Edited by: Miilla on 18/07/2011 17:06:26
Expirey dates on PLEX as a PLEX SINK is not a good Idea, as that SINK gives no value back and thus the thing that WILL happen most likely is the PLEX dumped onto the market for a lower value to pass on the hot potatoe (or lump of coal) to somebody elses (make it their problem). PLEX market tanking would also mean NO NEW SUBSCRIPTION REVENUE which is why they want more plex SINKs to remove the backlog of gametime and make it necessary to input NEW REVENUE rather than use the OLD revenue, but the actual effect would be that people buy PLEX every 30 days with ISK rather than stockpile PLEX, no change to the player, just the holder, that will get burnt. Again what about all those "in stasis" accounts with lots of PLEX for future gaming? Basically tell those customers to F off and not return?
Retroactively applying an expiry to alraedy held PLEX, would be VERY bad, on new PLEX? watch the petitions roll in, watch the rage as people's game time is wiped off the map, they would go to a competitor product after that burn.
Personally I love the yellow text. It's the closest thing to a 'tell' online. When Miilla types in yellow, she's emotional.
I take it you've got a nice pile of PLEX sitting somewhere?
It's not a new PLEX sink. The only sinks for PLEX are game time and Aurum. Everything between creation and destruction is speculative, and IMHO all speculation is bad. Expiry dates just add an additional layer of risk to that speculation.
The only people who will rage are PLEX speculators, who no doubt will type plenty of yellow text about it.
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Esan Vartesa
Khanid Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.07.18 17:21:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Diomedes Calypso As a practical manner, rather than a rolling 24 months they should be sold in tranches that expire either June 30th or December 31st (actually fiscal year dates would be better for administration strains). New plexes created on a given date would get 24 months plust an additional amount of days or months (up to six) applicable to the series being held.
That mechanism would limit the number of plex items to 4 or 5 and be quite workable for the game market mechanisms to handle.
I like this suggestion to minimize the coding expense. But I would make PLEX far more short-term. 3 types: 3 months, 2 months, and 1 month. End of each month, convert 3 month to 2, 2 to 1, and 1 month PLEXs are deleted.
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Esan Vartesa
Khanid Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.07.18 17:27:00 -
[7]
Straw man argument is made of straw.
Wouldn't it just be easier to be honest and state that you dislike this proposal because it would negatively affect you? It's not like that's not obvious to everyone.
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Esan Vartesa
Khanid Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.07.18 17:34:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Miilla Instead of stockpiling PLEX people also stockpile (speculate) on ships / items and other stuff not affected by an expiry.l be front row seat with popcorn on the fallout.
Good. If players stayed focused on shoveling the existing sand around, instead of messing with the supply of new sand, the sandbox would be a much better place.
Glad you've calmed down, by the way.
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Esan Vartesa
Khanid Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.07.18 17:42:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Miilla This would also raise ingame item prices which would have a nock on affect on your game wheras PLEX does not really directly affect your game.
Damn, you must run a farm, cause there seems to be no end to your supply of straw.
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Esan Vartesa
Khanid Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.07.18 17:46:00 -
[10]
Originally by: dexington
makes no sense, plex has the price of what the market decide, removing them with magic would not improve the market. Plex don't add new isk to the game.
Speculation distorts free markets, resulting in prices being skewed away from the equilibrium price dictated by supply and demand. PLEX prices do not currently reflect market prices. Adding a mechanic to disincentivise speculation helps restore the price to where it should be.
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Esan Vartesa
Khanid Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.07.18 17:54:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Miilla
Expiry dates is a bad fix for a problem of BAD PROMOTIONS and INGAME SINKS.
You are better to fix it by fixing the sinks properely, not buy shoving a big F U to all customers.
1) Desire to argue against expiry dates on PLEX 2) Claim expiry dates are related to some completely unrelated problem 3) Expiry dates are bad
The straw man argument is, literally, the ONLY intellectual tool she knows.
That and yellow text.
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Esan Vartesa
Khanid Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.07.18 17:58:00 -
[12]
Originally by: dexington
Originally by: Esan Vartesa
Originally by: dexington
makes no sense, plex has the price of what the market decide, removing them with magic would not improve the market. Plex don't add new isk to the game.
Speculation distorts free markets, resulting in prices being skewed away from the equilibrium price dictated by supply and demand. PLEX prices do not currently reflect market prices. Adding a mechanic to disincentivise speculation helps restore the price to where it should be.
Plex is not different from any other items on the market, you can try and manipulate the value of any item. I can't see why plex should have special limits, what you suggest would not work for any other items on the market, so why would it work for plex?
We're back to that argument again? See every thread about how Aurum for items is bad.
PLEX is not at all the same as every other item in-game. PLEX is an input via real world cash. Unlike every other item in Eve, it is not created through time spent playing, it is created by money.
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Esan Vartesa
Khanid Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.07.18 18:16:00 -
[13]
Originally by: dexington
Originally by: Esan Vartesa PLEX is not at all the same as every other item in-game. PLEX is an input via real world cash. Unlike every other item in Eve, it is not created through time spent playing, it is created by money.
And plex don't do anything except buy game time and cloths for characters, so what is the big problem?
Note that I never said that PLEX is bad. It's a very clever tool CCP came up with to minimize RMT.
The problem is bubbles. Hedging temporarily inflates the price of PLEX, which makes creating more PLEX attractive, which exacerbates the problem. Then when there's so much accumulated PLEX that the rate at which it trickles back onto the market starts to plateau the price, the bubble bursts. Then we start all over again.
I'm fine with that happening to ships, minerals, or any other in-game item. That's part of the game. I'm uncomfortable with the same thing happening to an item where the supply side is real world money. It's an instability that isn't good for anyone.
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Esan Vartesa
Khanid Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.07.18 18:19:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Miilla
'Warning: 'CCP has not made any special exceptions for the PLEX items. They are treated as regular in-game items with regards to market orders and contracts. Scams are easily avoidable by careful scrutiny of market orders and contracts and we urge anyone to be alert when dealing in PLEXes.
They're talking about PLEX with regard to scamming there, nothing else.
You understand that taking a statement out of context and presenting that as an argument to refute a position is another form of straw man, right?
And yellow text too. At least you're consistent.
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Esan Vartesa
Khanid Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.07.18 18:25:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Miilla
Originally by: Esan Vartesa
Note that I never said that PLEX is bad. It's a very clever tool CCP came up with to minimize RMT.
The problem is bubbles. Hedging temporarily inflates the price of PLEX, which makes creating more PLEX attractive, which exacerbates the problem. Then when there's so much accumulated PLEX that the rate at which it trickles back onto the market starts to plateau the price, the bubble bursts. Then we start all over again.
I'm fine with that happening to ships, minerals, or any other in-game item. That's part of the game. I'm uncomfortable with the same thing happening to an item where the supply side is real world money. It's an instability that isn't good for anyone.
Tough. Adapt.
I'm sure children dying in Somalia respect and appreciate that position as well as I do.
See? I can do it too!
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Esan Vartesa
Khanid Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.07.18 19:04:00 -
[16]
Originally by: stoicfaux More technical problems:
PLEX Age: How do you sell PLEX of different ages on the market? A PLEX with one day remaining until expiration isn't as valuable as a PLEX with 30 days remaining. The current market systems in EVE would require an overhaul to present PLEX age information.
Database Load: Since PLEX would age differently, every PLEX would be unique. This could create significant database load. (And would make PLEX unstackable as a side effect.)
Also, as stated and implied previously, expiring PLEX is a stick instead of a carrot, and as such, would probably lose a lot goodwill in the player base.
As was previously discussed above, you circumvent these problems by categorizing PLEX units. All PLEX in existence are converted into PLEX-3. At the end of the current month, all PLEX-3 turn into PLEX-2. All newly-created PLEX start out as PLEX-3. The following month, PLEX-3 become PLEX-2, and PLEX-2 become PLEX-1. Finally, the next month, PLEX-3 become PLEX-2, PLEX-2 become PLEX-1, and PLEX-1 are destroyed.
So you have 3 item types on the market instead of 1, avoiding your load concerns. As we approach the end of each month, prices of PLEX-3 begin to drop to PLEX-2 levels, prices of PLEX-2 move toward PLEX-1 levels, and PLEX-1 drop to a level that meets the summed demand for gate-time and Aurum.
Personally, I think that's quite an elegant solution.
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Esan Vartesa
Khanid Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.07.18 19:15:00 -
[17]
Quote: Personally i feel the free market forces should dictate the price of plex, and you feel it could be better if CCP regulate the price by restructuring the market.
With respect, I've changed the above to better reflect my actual position.
Regulation != Manipulation
And yes, I'm happy to agree to disagree. The point of public debate is to present your argument and let the audience decide, not to convince the person arguing the other side.
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Esan Vartesa
Khanid Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.07.18 19:48:00 -
[18]
I agree that the complexity is unfortunate.
Creating more uses for Aurum, however, won't drain stockpiles. The more uses for PLEX, be it in Eve or Dust, the safer an investment and hedge it becomes. The stockpiles will only grow over time.
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Esan Vartesa
Khanid Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.07.18 19:52:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Kalaed Lyosk
The things you said about benefiting WoD and Dust too are irrelevant. This is all it comes down to. If stockpiled PLEX is a problem, make people want to convert it. Don't make the players feel they are being punished for CCP's shortsightedness.
The people holding PLEX as a hedge will not be goaded into spending it on NeX items. In fact, increasing demand for Aurum only amplifies the advantage of holding onto PLEX, as it guarantees an increase in their value.
You're not seeing this.
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Esan Vartesa
Khanid Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.07.18 20:00:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Miilla
While you are on the bright idea train, add PLEX-4, PLEX-5, PLEX-6..
I feel that 6 months is too long. You want to create a sense that trying to speculate in PLEX is too risky.
What? You weren't being serious?
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Esan Vartesa
Khanid Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.07.18 20:29:00 -
[21]
Don't mind her, she's being emotionyellow.
You're right, changing things now is probably not palatable after recent events and the current atmosphere around here. But it's a growing problem, and throwing more uses for Aurum at it only makes it worse. And yes, I know that that's not going to stop them from doing just that.
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